Episode 9 - Setbacks, Resilience, and Getting Back Up

The thing about setbacks that make them especially difficult is that they rarely happen when we’re prepared for them. For example, they sometimes look like a mountain biking accident that leaves you with a broken finger and shoulder injury. Other times, they involve biting your tongue while eating an apple and suddenly being unable to speak, forcing you to take a brief hiatus from your podcast.

In this episode of Pilot 2 Co-Pilot, Antonio Neves and Jason Lindstrom are back, and they open up about what happens after life interrupts the plans that we’ve made. Jason shares how his biking accident has affected his physical routine, mental well-being, confidence, and annual biking goal, while Antonio reflects on his own injuries and the perspective that they have given him about health and the things which we can easily take for granted.

The conversation goes beyond physical recovery, though. More broadly speaking, Antonio and Jason explore the difference between experiencing a setback and allowing that setback to become part of your identity. They discuss why resilience requires giving yourself grace while still taking the next step, how repetition can help rebuild confidence, and why returning to something after an injury or disappointment can sometimes initially feel awkward.

The conversation also focuses on leadership and the responsibility managers have when members of their teams are struggling, with Antonio and Jason discussing balancing empathy with accountability, respecting personal boundaries, listening when people need support, and having the difficult conversations that can help someone move forward rather than remain stuck. They also examine how leaders can create workplaces in which people feel trusted enough to take risks without being frozen by the fear of failure. Open communication, encouragement, and a willingness to support people when things don’t go according to plan can truly make all the difference!

This episode of the show offers a reminder that setbacks are part of putting yourself out there and that what matters is how you respond, what you learn, who you allow to support you, and whether you’re willing to get back up and take the next step! Enjoy this episode of Pilot 2 Co-Pilot!

What You'll Take Away:
●How setbacks are temporary interruptions, not new identities
●Why resilience means giving yourself grace while continuing to move forward
●How rebuilding confidence takes patience, practice, and repetition
●How being a great leader means balancing empathy and compassion with accountability
●What a supportive, trusting culture can accomplish

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Hey everyone, welcome to Pilot to Co-Pilot, a leadership podcast with me and Tony O'Nez and Jason Lindstrom. And today we have a good one for you because we are talking about setbacks. So get this a few weeks ago, I hurt my tongue. How did I hurt my tongue? I was eating an apple walking down the street. And for a week I could barely eat or even get a sentence out. And that's kind of a problem for a guy who makes a living, speaking of stages. Then on the flip side, on the other side of the country, Jason, who absolutely loves to ride mountain bikes, I mean, loves to ride them. Unfortunately, in this amazing main weather we got going on right now, he went down and had a major crash that required a trip to urgent care, and even now, over a month out, still having some challenges with it. So these are different setbacks. It's the same math, right? Something is coming for your plans. It could be this year, it could be next Tuesday. So today, what we want to do is get into actually what we do when the unexpected happens. You know, not the social media highlight reel, but the real version of how you get your confidence back when you have a setback. So, Jason, let's get into it. Listen, you love riding bikes. I've had the opportunity to come to Maine and ride bikes with you. What an experience. It's amazing. So briefly, share with the listeners what happened and what has been the byproduct of that since.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Yeah, so uh to put it in perspective, you know, imagine a nice humidity-free day, sunny summer day here in Maine, and I'm cruising along the trail. Lots of people were out on the trail. This trail is like a thoroughfare for walkers, dog walkers, hikers, photographers because it's so beautiful, and then bikers. We all share the trail. And there's rules everywhere that say bikes have the right of way to go around. We're supposed to yell to people. So I yelled to these two ladies ahead of me. I said, on your left, and they moved to their left, right in front of me. And to dodge them, I uh bent the bike down a little bit and hit the like pole at the end of this little bridge that uh controls you know ATVs and cars from going through. So I hit it with my left hand, and I think that's where I broke my finger, my ring finger. Um, and then that immediately turned my front wheel sideways, which flipped me off over the bike onto my right side, separating my shoulder and scraping up my entire right side through uh my bicycling gear. I got up and was like just dazed with it, turned my bike around and rode home about two miles and jumped in the shower to wash all the dirt and blood off of me. And um, I guess just that ironic thing is that I've been mountain biking for a while now, about five years. You know, I'm in my mid-50s, so it doesn't necessarily heal up super fast, but I've been to Utah and Arkansas, you know, some of these mountain bike areas, and have been on much more treacherous trails and all of that, and had two people essentially take me out that were walking on the trail. Um, so you know, I think of the ego that that is, uh, all of it. Um, but that definitely was a setback because Maine is beautiful at this time of year, and it's good to be outside and doing all these things because in the winter, when it's 32 degrees or colder, it's a lot harder to get out and uh enjoy the weather on a bike um with the ice and snow. So that's where I stand. Now it's been about it'll be four weeks this Sunday. My finger is still um really messed up. I'm getting physical therapy going on uh the shoulder. Uh doesn't seem like anything uh other than the finger being broken. The x-rays, everything were good on my shoulder. It's just sore. Um, you know, I feel it every now and then. Uh, but just getting through that. And when you're older, it doesn't heal as super fast as you'd like. And I'd like to get right back out there on the bike. And so, you know, when we're talking about setbacks and Antonio's tongue and my shoulder and my finger. Um, you know, those are physical setbacks. But yeah, it it definitely has set me back and has slowed my progress to my 3,000 mile a year goal that I have on uh biking for the year.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

So let's let's talk about the mental side of this here in a second. But to your point, you're hoping you have an accident, there's an epic story to go along with it. Your story is you sit on your left, which is standard in my life. If you're hiking, if you are walking, if you are running, riding a bike, on your left means somebody's coming on your left. So the fact that they stepped directly into you is wild. For me, what's wild is the fact that when I tell you, Jason, my tongue that I bit into my tongue, I mean, you would have thought that I was hungry and I want and I had no food, and all I wanted to eat was my tongue. A gash was huge. It was ridiculous. And there's no cool story. Just like, you know, you said on your left, I'm walking down the street eating an apple. Now, how the heck this happens, I have no idea, but it rendered me unable to speak for a couple of weeks. The good news is that I did not have a crazy schedule or anything like that, but it still definitely affected my life and was super, super frustrating. That's something I run on social media to talk to talk about, but still was it was a challenge. But for both of us, I'm curious, starting with you. When you have a setback like that, I think, but let me rewind and say it's important because I don't think we talk about even things like this, personal things out loud enough. We just keep them to ourselves. But when you have a setback like that, your mountain bike crash, Jason, how does something like that affect you just beyond, beyond the physical injury? What have you uh what has been your experience?

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Well, I think the mental aspect for me is that I've been focused on this goal, this goal of 3,000 miles a year, um, either on the Peloton inside in combination with mountain bike riding. And it's become such a part of my life that this is, you know, I think we've talked about this in other podcast episodes about how it means something to me because of my health and keeping my health up, but it's also part of the routine. It's my detox from the day. It's the time to get out and be at one with nature and do all that. So mentally, I'm having to adjust to get back on the Peloton indoors while I look out the window and see how beautiful it is outside. And so I think it tends to affect me in a way that is more, you know, whether it's, you know, mental aspect, the spiritual aspect, that, you know, the getting outdoors kind of thing, uh, you know, that that really plays into it. I'm still able to do my job. Now it's a little hard to type. We were talking about that before we started recording, but you know, you get you get through all that. That's that's not a big deal. But I think for someone that does have goals and everything, if you translate this to business, you know, there could be a setback where your boss comes in and says, Hey, I don't like that report. I want you to redo it. And you're like, oh geez, I was just ready to leave. And you got to get back on that report. It's very similar. You know, that affects you mentally, like, oh man, did I not do a good job at something? Um, but it also can affect you physically too, because you can get sick over these kind of things, especially when you put a lot of time and effort into something. Um, and I think, you know, to your point, Antonio, as a public speaker and somebody that does keynote addresses, like your tongue is it is your is your baby. I mean, that's that's what it's your moneymaker, essentially, right? Um, you write great books, that doesn't require your tongue per se. Um, but and you do great uh trainings and keynotes um that don't do require that tongue. And you know, that can set you back financially too if you had to cancel out. I don't think you did, uh, if you had to cancel out something. But, you know, when setbacks happen like this, it's the way you have to think about continuing to move forward, right? So your tongue injury, I'm guessing, you can talk about this if you like, um, didn't set you back to a point where you're not working out or you're not writing your thoughts down for your next book and the things that you're trying to do. Um, you move forward. And I think leaders have to have that resiliency um to be able to move forward when a setback or an obstacle gets in your way. It's always like charging forward. And yes, you can get knocked down, you can get knocked off your bike, you can have an apple disaster, whatever it is, and still have that resiliency to move forward. And I think that's a big part of leadership, and then, you know, especially for emerging leaders too, to think about, you know, that you will have setbacks along the way. You will have setbacks along the way. And it's how you how you rebound from it.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yeah, we got a calm coming. It's how we uh react to them, how we respond to them. I think of a bigger setback I had maybe four or five years ago. I was playing football on the beach with some buddies, just pick up, playing fun, nothing crazy. And I was a college athlete, track and field guy, and I ended up pulling my hamstring, I tore my hamstring off of the bone, like it literally was removed from the bone. And I had to have it surgically reattached. And that one did require me having to cancel a lot of speaking engagements and being at home and not being able to physically uh move as much and being in bed for quite some time. And I think uh I bring that up because I always wonder in situations like this when we have setbacks. Now, right now we're talking about our physical setbacks. And I one, it gives you a bit of a vantage point to have appreciation and gratitude for the bodies that we have, right? The fact that, yeah, there may be injuries or maybe setbacks, but thank goodness for this body that we do have, thank goodness that it is is healing and nothing more serious. Uh, but also, you know, we can feel get a little down in those moments. I know I was definitely felt down when I had my hamstring injury, when I had my tongue injury. I'm curious, I know it's only four weeks for you, but four weeks into this, have you been able to give any thought? Has this has there been any type of gift in this? I know it may be too soon, but has this reforced slowdown done anything for you? That if you were just moving, moving, moving as normally, as normal, it wouldn't have happened.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Yeah, I think the the the biggest gift I get from this is um to know that I'm not just about mountain biking and and that I can this injury will eventually heal and I'll be able to grip the handlebars and the brakes and all of that that I need to when I am mountain biking. But I think it just it gives me some perspective as to, you know, there's lots of people out there that have it a lot worse, you know, they're inflicted with a disease or you know, something that beyond their control, maybe they were born with a birth defect or um, you know, uh some other kind of ailment that they're not gonna heal from. And so I think for me as a leader, you know, it does open my eyes to say, you know, I'm I'm a big people person, and I think, you know, everybody should have a fair shot at life. And, you know, the ability to, you know, start from the bottom and work your way up and do all these kind of things is is fantastic, especially here in America where we have this free society where you can be anything you really want to be. But I guess the perspective that this gives me is that, man, this just took out something of my life that I really enjoy. It's really fun for me to do. But there are people out there that have ailments and afflictions and things that they have to live with on a day-to-day basis. So they're kind of in a constant state of having setbacks. And um, you know, I could talk a little bit about my brother, who's an Episcopal priest, and he just retired. He's two and a half years younger than me. He got early onset Parkinson's disease. He has a brain stimulator put in to help him with his everyday life. And he loved being a priest and preaching on Sunday and doing things for his congregation and people in the community. And for him to uh retire at an age that he didn't want to retire, he's now having to think about how he can improve from that setback. So he told his congregation this past Sunday that, you know, he's gonna write a book and uh he wants the congregation to hold him accountable, and I will hold him accountable as well, because you when you have setbacks and everything, you still have goals. You still have to attain things to keep your survival. And I just I think the biggest thing with all of this is that it opens my eyes to those that are really struggling with with harder things and the setbacks that could be part of their daily life. And, you know, these will go away and tone your tongue will heal or has healed. Um, you know, but I think that that's something that really opens your eyes a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Yeah, it opens your eyes a lot. And I I can only imagine what that diagnosis is like for your brother and for the family and the community that that that's big made me think about my father who was diagnosed with with dementia. And so the thing is we got we all have to press pause every now and then, and even in the midst of challenging seasons, times that be appreciative of all the blessings and everything that we do have to us right now, what we have available to us right now. You know, we're talking about you and I right now and things that we've experienced. And listen, we're similar. I can't be down for a long time. Just my mindset, who I am, you know, even this and personal things I'm experiencing in my life that you're aware of. And my brain is still one always of optimism and hope. Like I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna dust myself off there and move forward. That's just how I roll. I'm sure that's how you roll. My question for you is and specifically as a manager, as a leader, obviously there are people in the workforce. They could be on your team, your division, your organization that experience setbacks as well in the personal life or in the business life. So when the shoe is on the other foot, how do you support people when they're experiencing setbacks? And I say ask that question because there's two sides of it. There are some people who allow a setback to become their identity. A woe is me. And then they live in that space. And so maybe in some regards they love the adulation and attention they get from that situation, whether it's intentional or not. So my question is how do you balance having that empathy, that compassion for an individual while simultaneously knowing who we are, also simultaneously encouraging that person and not calling them out, but but calling them up uh to move forward and to not let this be uh permanent. Um, so it can be a setup for a comeback. So how do you balance those two?

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Yeah, when I look at leadership and I think about it, you know, leadership truly is about people, at least from my perspective. I don't view leadership as the title. I don't view it as having all the answers. Um, I really am not the smartest person in the room 90% of the time. It's about getting people to follow you and getting them to understand how you operate. Uh, you know, our organization, we're team first. Like we take care of our people. Not every organization is that way. And I think we do have some folks that, you know, are carrying large burdens and all that. And, you know, we've hired a good leadership team that has that empathy piece and wants to work on individual situations. And we have an open door policy. So leadership in our organization and leadership with me is always open. Um, you know, I was talking with someone today that uh I'm gonna be teaching at America's Credit Union's business development school. And I said it's gonna be interesting because I'm gonna be teaching to a number of people that aren't in a CEO role and can't necessarily affect change at their organization. But what I want to tell them is give them some examples of how they can. And so I think, you know, when there are those challenges, and and like you said, you see that in the workplace. I, you know, I encourage our team to like really talk to each other about it. And um, I think it works. It happens to work for us. Um, but I think it just it really boils down to having that good open communication and really talk through situations, like, you know, what's really bothering you? And, you know, you know, having those tough conversations sometimes is is not easy as a leader, but I think if you have the empathy and you care about people, it does make it a lot easier.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

I mean, speaking of tough conversations, it's it's interesting. And I'm curious as I think about life, as I think about business, I think the question for a lot of people always is, how much do I share? And I don't think there's one right answer for this, but I'm thinking about that that man, that woman that works for an organization, uh, works for a credit union, they have a personal setback. Not a business setback, but a personal setback, something that's definitely affecting them. Maybe that's maybe that's physically, maybe that's a challenging season they're going through with a relationship or something at home with children. It could be a multitude of things. The question I have is, and I'm gonna give you another side of this that people may not like. But the question is, how much do you think people should share that setback, the personal side of things, Jason, with their managers, that person they report to versus not? And here's what's interesting every person that I work with currently is a contractor, is someone that that's not on salary or payroll, and I don't provide business to that, they're a contractor. I hire them to do X, Y, or Z, and they essentially deliver. Uh, there's a date and they deliver it, and we have a schedule and all that kind of fun stuff. Selfishly, and people are gonna think I'm a bad person. I love working with contractors. You know why? Because I don't have to deal with the personal. Like I hire someone to execute an X, Y, and Z. Sure, we talk, I may get to know you a little bit, but it's not that familiarity on a day-to-day. It's like project-based. So I'm feel kind of lucky that sometimes I don't have to hear what's going on at home in your life. Just give me the product that you're the deliverable. And your role and your situation, your team, people who lead men and women, how do you balance what you do and do not share with your boss, with your manager?

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Yeah, I think that the biggest thing is you have to make it human. Every interaction shouldn't be transactional. Now, for you, working with a contractor, that's fine because you hire them, they do what they're supposed to do, and then you pay them. You know, and hopefully they do a good job with it, but you're easily able to say, I'm ending the contract relationship and moving to someone else when they do poorly. In times in the workplace with HR, you know, human resources and law and everything else that you have, it's not as easy. And so you do have to make it human. You have to sit down with them. And I think it's everyone's personal preference. Some people don't like to share anything about their personal life uh at work. Others, I think, love to talk about their personal life so much at work that it might even be overwhelming to some that are sitting around them in the same cubicle area and hearing about their trials and tribulations. But again, I think it just does boil back to the the communication and and making it human. And I think as leaders, we need to be human and we need to be able to listen. Um, and I think that you get into situations sometimes where, oh, well, that that might be too much information. But let the person know, like, hey, I I understand you're having these kind of things going on with your family. And um, you know, it it hopefully work can be a place where you can come and you can get away from it for a little bit and you know be successful here, um, even with what you have going on. But I think it's you know, having that empathy and and making it a human conversation both ways.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Yeah. Tell me this. You know, you're you're a guy that I consider a super, super confident guy. Uh based on who you are, how you show up naturally. I'm not sure if you've always been as confident as I perceive you to be, or something that you've developed over the course of your life. I think in the marketplace, people who know me, they definitely perceive me to be a confident as guy, a confident guy. They don't know all the conversations and things I think in my head while they're thinking that guy on stage speaking to a few thousand people, man, he's he's uber confident. I can't say it's like that all the time. But how do you keep a setback from affecting your confidence? And I'm even curious right now, did this crash in any shape or form, has it uh affected your confidence personally or professionally? And I'll I'll lead the witness some here. I know that in the midst of all this, you had to get on a plane and travel all across the country with some connections when you was not four weeks out, when the hand was worse than it is now on the shoulder as well. So how did your confidence take a hit, if at all? And uh how do you um process that?

SPEAKER_00 21:43

From a business perspective, no, my confidence didn't take a hit. Um, you know, I think at first, you know, coming into work afterward and being like, oh yeah, I crashed on my bike. Look at this arm, look at all the scrapes. Um but I think when Where I'm struggling in my head right now is like when I get back on that bike, is my confidence going to be at that level where it was before? And that's the thing that's going through my head right now. You know, um, it's great. I can get on the Peloton, I can ride, I don't need to grip anything, I can just spin the wheel essentially, uh, spin the cranks on it and still get my mileage in. But when you're out mountain biking, you've experienced this with me. Uh, I'm not by any means going off 12-foot cliffs and doing crazy stuff, but there are routes and everything. And when you're out mountain biking, I can tell like my calorie burn is higher outside because I've got a mental burn going too versus riding indoors. And so there's a lot to be thinking about. Like, if I hit that route, is that route gonna be slippery? All those things are like cycling through my head super fast. And I can make that decision, like, okay, I'm gonna grip the bars a lot tighter or pump the brakes a little bit and ease over this route that's on the trail. And I think it's um one of those things that you know you have to learn and it's it's a learned trait. But now getting on the bike after I crashed, after trying to avoid two people hiking, is totally a different mindset. It's like, am I going to think differently when I have to pass someone again on the trail? Am I gonna really hit the brakes and slow down, maybe even walk around them if I have to, so that this doesn't happen again. And I think it in business is a lot like that as well, that you have to be resilient, you got to get back on the horse or on the bike or back into the project, whatever it is, because that's the job and that's what we do. And so, yeah, I think that confidence at work, no, no, that didn't really take a hit, but confidence of getting back on the bike. And am I gonna be able to pull that brake and have it work and have my hand work and feel good? Am I gonna be able to go over that route and take a little bit of a bump through the shock system on the bike into my shoulder? You know, those are all things are going through my mind pretty heavily for sure.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

I mean, that's a lot. It's obviously something physical like mountain biking, you know, it's it's so much more than your legs, right? It's your upper body strength, it's your core, it's your fingers, all those things you're not thinking about. And, you know, the dangerous thing when it comes specifically to sports, even let's say somebody got into a car accident. Yeah. What we're talking about is hesitation. And a lot of times, hesitation, a professional athlete will tell you this, and maybe that you don't even need to be a professional. You don't need to be a professional athlete is if you what you hesitate, that's where problems happen. Whether you're driving or if you're uh riding a bike, uh if you hesitate, it's just not natural. And that's where we can kind of overthink. So it will be interesting when you get back on that bike. But that makes me think about I'm building out some brand new a brand new keynote right now. I mean, from scratch. A couple of consistent themes that I've used before, but I have a full new 60 minutes. And when I tell you the confidence of this 60 minutes is not there right now. And what I've learned, having done this work for well over 10 plus years, and this will go back obviously to your mountain bike riding or other setbacks people are experiencing, is that I've done this long enough to know that Tony, the first time's not gonna be great. And I don't care how many reps you're doing at home in the garage, how much you're prep, the first one's not gonna be great. But what's gonna get it to a good place is reps. Uh, as much as you can get as many reps in as possible. And that first rep may be a little sloppy, a little bit clunky. I'm good enough as a pro, the audience probably won't feel that the way I'm feeling it, but it's gonna be a little clunky, but reps are gonna make the difference. Probably the same way bike ride one for you outside can be very different than bike ride 10 after all this. So I think that my reminder to folks is if you are coming back from a setback in any capacity, even if you've been out on uh leave because you had a child or something like that, you've been out of the office for four weeks or six weeks, that first day may you may be a little sluggish or not back at not be feeling like you, but give yourself some time to get the the reps in. And this is gonna be um a quick transition to a different question, but I think an important one because a lot of times people don't distinguish between these two things. But Jason, how would you distinguish uh between a setback and a failure?

SPEAKER_00 26:31

I think a failure is something that is is much harder to overcome. And, you know, I think we've chatted about this. I don't know if you remember or not, but I was laid off from two different credit unions, no fault of my own, just a business decision. At the time, I felt like a failure. I felt like, gosh, I failed my in my career goals. I failed this organization because they didn't see me as valuable enough to stay. I should have at the time looked at it as a setback. It actually created more opportunity for me because I was laid off at both of these places. And I think failures haven't necessarily happened to me. They've been setbacks, but I've learned from them and moved on. With a setback, I think you have that opportunity to learn and move on. But also, if you fail at something or you feel like you fail at something, you have that ability to pick yourself up, ride the two miles home, whatever it might be, and and get back on that horse, so to speak. Yes, there's things that you can fail at that are detrimental to a career, like if you did something so blatantly wrong where you lost a lot of money and you ended up getting fired from a job, and it was hard to hard to be rehired anywhere because you have that looming over your head that maybe you have to change careers and go somewhere else. I think as a human, you are always gonna have setbacks. You are always gonna have failures, but it's the resiliency of the human spirit in your own mind and how you pick yourself up and keep moving forward after. Um, you got to give yourself grace and then take the next step, right? It's it's one of those things. Like, I did not crash gracefully. I picked myself up and I had my AirPods on, and the two ladies were like, Are you okay? And I'm like, Yeah, I'm fine, I'm fine. And I got back on that bike. I did not want to be around them at all because it I was just in shock. But I took the next step and I rode home. Um, I got in the shower and washed off, you know, the blood and the dirt and and all of that. And then I looked and I'm like, I have to give myself grace. Like, I ride so much. This is bound to happen at some point. And failure is bound to happen at some point. Nobody goes through life without failures, whether it's a failed marriage that you blame yourself or whomever for, but it's how you are resilient after the fact. Um, and I've always said that in my career and talking with people and trying to coach young leaders that you know, you earn the position that you're in and you earn things by doing the best job that you can. And sometimes it does result in a setback or worse, a failure where um, you know, you're taken out of the role that you're in, or you know, the company uh has a loss or something created. But it's again, how how do you rebound from it? And I think that's that's the point of where people are are good at that resiliency, or they need to learn how to be resilient because maybe they're not.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Yeah, one of the best ways to do that is by who you surround yourself with. Hopefully, you're surrounding yourself by people who are encouraging you, are encouraging you, challenging you, pushing you, and calling you up to be the best version of yourself and obviously having grace for you. But if you are wallowing in self-pity for far too long, those people are willing to have that real conversation with you and remind you who you are. You know, when I think about failure, the difference between setback and failure. I feel like failure is something that's permanent. The setback is temporary. My tongue, temporary. You know, your injuries, the bike ride, you know, temporary. But failure, I think, sometimes is permanent. And thank goodness, as long as we're we're waking up tomorrow, we can even look at a setback. Or if you want to call it a failure, is a learning lesson, something that we have learned that allows us to grow. Like that's the biggest thing. You learn something from that. I'm learning something from everything, and hopefully we can we can use that. We've all heard that cliche saying uh life doesn't get easier, we just get better, or you have to get better. And I think that's the opportunity that we have. And I think thank goodness I have people like you in my life, and I know you have an amazing community that that make challenging seasons all that much easier. And maybe this is important to say as well, Jason, that if you are going through a setback, a challenging season is don't isolate. It's so easy to isolate, live in a silo when in seasons like this, we we need to reach out. And I feel fortunate to have men and women in my life that if some time goes, and you're one of those people that if some time goes by that you don't hear from Tony, I know a text message is gonna show up and folks are gonna reach out and see how I'm doing. So I feel really blessed and fortunate with that. Just a a couple more questions because we're talking about setbacks. And guess what? You can't have a setback if you don't put yourself out there, right? You're not gonna have a bike crash if you're not on a bike, you're not going to have a a keyno talk that that stinks up the place if you're not on stage. So, you know, as a leader, and you got a lot of folks that you're responsible for, Jason. How do you create a culture where even when the stakes are high, that people aren't afraid to fail and to put it out there and to go for it? And I'm not talking about doing foolish things. Now, there's one there's foolish, idiotic self, that's another category. I'm talking about what's playing within the you know, the bounds, within the lanes where you're not gonna break any laws or do anything crazy. But how do you make sure people aren't afraid to take some chances and fail?

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Well, I think, you know, um the leadership team where I work and who we've brought on board and hired, we aren't afraid to fail. We know that failure could happen, setbacks can happen. And I think it's it's one of those things that if the communication lines are always open and you sit down with a person and say, Hey, this project just isn't gonna work out. You know, I understand you put a lot of effort into it. I understand you put a lot of time, energy, your heart and soul in this, and this is what you present it. But it's just not the direction that the company is gonna go. Or it, you know, we don't have the budget for this. As great as it is, it we don't have the budget for it. You know, those those are harsh realities that can come, but it's how you deliver it, how you talk about it. And I think that the communication piece is the largest piece of of that.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Yeah, I think it's also reminding people this is why we hired you. We live through the process. I brought you on board because I trust you. If you remind someone that you trust them, I even like even with my young kids, I've I have 10-year-old twins. And if I see them being a little bit hesitant and not fully giving their all on something, you know, I always remind my kids that this is interesting, especially for a speaker and an author, that the audience comes last. We're so worried about what other people are going to think that we allow it, we allow it to paralyze us. We allow it not to for us not to fully show up. We we shrink because we're thinking about what other people are going to say. And don't get me wrong, we can have stakeholders involved that we're accountable to. But, you know, there's this great book called The Inner Game of Tennis, and it talks about how you can be in flow without overthinking things. And if I'm someone's on my team, they're in my life, I want them to be themselves 100% and to take those chances, to take those risks. And hopefully I'm a good enough leader to jump in when it's needed, or they'll come to me if they have questions or something like that. And look, I've been in the room with your staff firsthand to say that what you're talking about right now is 100% true, the way you empower them and the things that I've heard in those rooms and the way people share, you build a dynamic culture. And so, and I think that's probably why you you've been so so successful. But I think that may be a great place uh to wind down here. I mean, this has been a super, super rich conversation. Obviously, it's not fun to go through what you're going through, uh biting your tongue. That that's not fun. Thank goodness I'm okay. And, you know, I'm not sure if I if I can say this out loud, but in the midst of everything you've experienced, you have a spouse at home just a who a few weeks prior, had a major knee surgery. And here are you two are uh here you two are with these devastating injuries at home. So who was that's my last question for you? Who was cooking meals? Were you guys did your DoorDash or Uber Eats Bill? Was it really high the past four weeks?

SPEAKER_00 35:18

We've we've had some of that, but um, as you know, Shannon's a a good cook, and so uh, you know, you can't keep her out of the kitchen. And fortunately, she's been on the mend longer. Um, and so she's able to move around before my inner my my injury. And so she's running for state representative here in Maine. And I think that's been the hardest thing for her is not being able to get outside really and walk door to door and talk to people about her campaign. But she's starting to do more of that as her uh me gets better and she's been through rounds of physical therapy that I have yet to start on my shoulder. So yeah, it's just a seasonal thing, I guess. And uh it's interesting because you know, one of my mantras is like, hey, we have to put in the work. And I know that that physical therapy work is hard for her. Um, but she also knows that she puts in the work at home too and and uh cooks good meals and we have people over and that kind of thing, just because that's who she is and what we're all about. And you know, I I know that I'm gonna have to put in the work with PT, try to make sure the shoulder and finger is back up to speed. But hey, that's the part of the setback, right? Is how you rebound from it and come out of it. And I I'm a firm believer in that you earn everything in life by showing up, learning, adapting to things, making mistakes, like you talked about, failures, but you take responsibility and that helps you continue to grow. And, you know, that's something I think both my wife and I, I think you were always growing, always looking at new things, always thinking about what the future holds as well as what's going on in the present. And I think if you can live your life that way, both at work and at home, uh, it really helps you out.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Man, I I agree with you 100%. Thank you so much for another great conversation. And thank you, the listeners, for listening to another episode of Pilot to Copilot with me, Antonio Neves and Jason Lindstrom. We look forward to having another episode for you soon, but thank you for joining us. Jason, thank you. Heal really fast, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Yeah, thanks. You too. I hope you uh continue to give great keynotes and you don't have another reoccurrence of the tongue injury.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

You and me both. Take care.